Ao dar uma roupagem leve a conceitos e autores densos, o paulista Clóvis de Barros Filho, 51 anos, transforma a filosofia em um tema pop e descontraído. Palestrante super-requisitado no Brasil e no Exterior – sua agenda comporta até 25 conferências por mês –, o jornalista, bacharel em Direito e ex-professor da Escola de Comunicações e Artes da Universidade de São Paulo (USP) esteve em Porto Alegre como convidado do 14º Congresso do Ensino Privado Gaúcho, realizado pelo Sindicato do Ensino Privado (Sinepe/RS). Em uma performance que prendeu a atenção da plateia do Centro de Eventos da PUCRS ao longo de 75 minutos – período em que ele não consultou qualquer anotação nem tomou um único gole d’água –, o filósofo falou de ética e moral, temas que estão entre suas pautas mais frequentes. Confira a entrevista. 2154z

Em sua palestra, você disse que "a ética é a vitória da convivência sobre a canalhice, e a sociedade está doente quando permite que o canalha vença". Fale mais sobre isso, por favor.

Se você imaginar que cada um de nós é dotado de uma certa energia para viver e que essa energia pode subir, e é o que nós chamamos de "alegria", ganho de potência de agir, e ela pode descer, o que nós chamamos de "tristeza", é normal que o canalha busque de qualquer jeito a sua alegria. Só que agindo como age, ele entristece muita gente. É como, por exemplo, quem para em fila dupla ou urina na piscina. Na hora em que você faz a aritmética dos ganhos e das perdas, das alegrias e das tristezas, das potências e das impotências, em larga escala, você constata que, onde o canalha triunfa, sistematicamente há grandes contingentes de pessoas prejudicadas e entristecidas – e é isso que faz uma sociedade ser doente. A ética parte de uma primazia: a busca de uma convivência harmônica, que dá a todos que interagem iguais chances de felicidade. É uma coisa que vale mais do que o ganho individual buscado por esse ou aquele membro desse coletivo. Deve haver um alinhamento entre a maneira como você vai buscar o que você deseja e aquilo que é entendido por todos como aceitável dentro daquele espaço de convivência. Por isso a ética é a vitória da convivência sobre a canalhice. 

O tema da sua conferência foi "Por um País Mais Ético". Em termos de moral, você disse que estamos longe de um padrão ideal.

Estamos assistindo a uma erosão da moral. Cada vez mais, precisamos de repressão para garantir condutas de convívio – como o uso disseminado de câmeras de segurança –, quando, na verdade, se a moral bastasse, nada disso seria necessário. É impressionante como, a cada dia que a, estamos mais submetidos à fiscalização e menos sobra espaço para o nosso discernimento, aquela liberdade de saber o que é certo e o que é errado. Isso empobrece a dignidade humana. Ver o seu bom comportamento como resultado de um constrangimento externo é apequenador da sua dignidade. Nós nos acostumamos a uma mediocridade moral.

Leia também:
"Não nos resta alternativa a não ser o otimismo", diz escritor angolano José Eduardo Agualusa
Lázaro Ramos: "Tento ser um móbile: não ficar sentado sobre uma certeza. Fico sentado sobre valores"

O que mais o inquieta no Brasil atualmente?

O que mais me inquieta é o jovem que começa a ter lucidez sobre a sua vida e sobre a sociedade e sequer cogita a possibilidade de uma formação moral adequada para que ele mesmo possa discernir sobre a melhor maneira de agir. As pessoas crescem acreditando que só se obtém comportamentos justos dos outros na base da repressão. Isso é o que mais me inquieta, como o fato de a diretora de escola dizer: "Vocês devem se comportar porque tem uma câmera fiscalizando". Ela ou por cima da possibilidade daquela criança ter uma formação suficiente para agir adequadamente sem nenhum tipo de repressão.

Você disse que "nos acostumamos a conviver com os excrementos morais dos nossos concidadãos". Toleramos a falta de ética e a transgressão em diferentes níveis e lugares, todos os dias. Qual é o custo disso para alguém que cresce em um ambiente contaminado?

É não vislumbrar a possibilidade de ser diferente – esse é o principal custo. É você acreditar que tem de ser assim, acreditar que não pode ser de outro jeito. A pessoa não tem a chance nem de vislumbrar essa possibilidade, porque ela, na sua trajetória de vida e de convivência, é massacrada pela desconfiança. Se você falar na possibilidade da confiança, você desperta o riso da pessoa, como que dizendo: "Esse é um louco, ele é de outro planeta". Em determinados momentos da vida em sociedade, a presença da canalhice é tão recorrente que, se você for se insurgir contra cada agente e cada ação canalha, você corre o risco de ter um desgaste resultante desse conflito ininterrupto, um desgaste que acaba exaurindo. Qual é a solução que as pessoas encontram para continuar vivendo? É fazer vista grossa, fingir que não existe ou, de maneira mais resignada, é saber que existe mas considerar a sua própria indignação como insuficiente para fazer frente ao volume de iniciativas canalhas que o circundam. Aí então você acaba tendo uma espécie de sociedade anestesiada pela perplexidade diante do sucesso da desonestidade.

Às vezes, só pensar em reagir já cansa, né?

Claro. No final do dia, não há quem aguente. Ante tantas humilhações, você peitar cada uma delas dá uma sensação de impotência. Às vezes, não é só uma sensação, é uma certeza de impotência ante tantas iniciativas lesivas à convivência.

Você falou há pouco em pessoas entristecidas. Já o ouvi dizendo que estamos em um mundo "extraordinariamente competente para entristecer". Essa competência para o entristecimento lhe parece cada vez mais intensa?

Eu acho que o real como um todo pode ser bastante lesivo, e isso sempre foi assim. Mas acho que, de certa maneira, a convivência, sobretudo num cenário no qual as pessoas só pensam nos próprios ganhos e vantagens, é uma convivência progressivamente entristecedora. É preciso quase uma formação psicológica para esse tipo de convivência apequenadora de potência.

Você diz que a felicidade se resume a instantes, é o aqui e agora. Por quê?

A felicidade é um atributo da vida onde a vida está, não poderia ser em nenhum outro lugar. E nesse lugar você tem o imediatismo da consciência do mundo, tal como ele se apresenta diante de nós, o mundo percebido, e você tem ao mesmo tempo o que chamamos de ado, que nada mais é do que o presente quando materializado em memória. E você tem no presente a presença do futuro, que nada mais é do que o presente que projeta o devir, que antecipa o que vai acontecer. A felicidade tem de estar metida aí no meio. Se existe alguma equação de vida feliz, é exatamente numa temporalidade onde o presente do ado, o presente do presente e o presente do futuro se articulam de maneira auspiciosa e potencializadora. E isso se dá de instante a instante. Um novo instante é uma nova equação, e tudo pode mudar. É uma equação entre aquilo de que lembramos, aquilo que acontece diante de nossos olhos e aquilo que esperamos que possa acontecer. Uma equação entre a nostalgia, a percepção do mundo e a esperança.

Outras entrevistas da seção Com a Palavra:
Max Gehringer:

A vida tem sentido? Você se questiona sobre isso"> 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